This started as an item in Random Thoughts VIII, but grew a little long and so became it’s own little stand-a-lone screed.
“Never need to wonder how or why“
While writing the traffic light bit in Random Thoughts VII, it occurred to me that there was an aspect of ‘elitism’/expert class to it. I have the ability to judge when and where to ignore the suggestion of lights. But by observation, many don’t – they aren’t paying attention to their surroundings sufficiently to do it safely. However, it’s really sort of marginal – in the context I was speaking about, e.g. pedestrian crossing at a completely empty intersection, everyone can do it and that some don’t speaks to our innate deference to authority and all that said deference implies for the human condition. A more clear cut example of where I tend to fall into the elitist pattern is belief in God and religious doctrine. I’ve become increasingly positively disposed to the idea that religious ideas and specifically their manifestation in western culture provide a very good basis for how to order ones behavior and life. That observation is not surprising as I think that the religious stories and doctrines are distilled from generations of experience of what ‘works’ for humans to thrive. The ‘elitist’ aspect comes into play with the metaphysics though.
Until recently, I would have classified myself as an atheist. These days, I’m more inclined to identify as agnostic – not because of any fundamental change in my thoughts about the existence of a god or gods, but rather allowing for the, in my opinion very unlikely, possibility that I’m wrong about non-existence. And yet I see the benefit of belief in God and adherence to the teachings of the church, to the degree they are not corrupted and reflect the essence of the accumulated knowledge both experiential/learned and to some degree genetic, or at least epigenetic, that are reflected in the stories and concepts. I behave as if God exists. But therein lies the elitism – I think I can make that distinction and understand the value of religious belief and implement it in my daily life, but without embracing an actual belief in God. But I’m not convinced that’s true for the vast majority of people. Do we need to accept as axiomatic the foundational metaphysics of a religious belief in order to take advantage of that accumulated knowledge and experience that makes life better? Not me of course, but everyone else. It seems that the acceptance of the metaphysical is necessary to reap the advantage, otherwise people drift and question the value of the ideas in the short term where their value is not necessarily clear, but ignoring them is, in the long run detrimental. Hence the elitism inherent in my thoughts. Belief for thee, but not for me. I can understand the value of the way of life without the belief and can, for the most part reap the benefits of the accumulated knowledge, but you the masses cannot. So I recognize the elitism and I understand the value, nay necessity, of the rules and guidance, but cannot abandon my understanding that the metaphysics is downstream of the life lessons and experience. For nearly everyone else though, it’s best for you accept the metaphysics as axiomatic and the way of life follows naturally and we all benefit.
More than ‘pretty elitist’ – fundamentally elitist, even if you think I’m completely wrong on the metaphysics side. I am pretty thoroughly convinced that the world is a better place when there’s a cultural shared belief in the existence of god(s) so long as the fundamental tenants and teachings of that belief are informed by that long evolutionary and experientially learned behavior. Of course how to protect that fundamentally human institution from the inevitable corruption and abuse that it will fall prey to is a separate and difficult question. One that I’ll ignore. Despite that conviction regarding the value of the belief system, I cannot suspend my understanding of the natural world to the degree that I become more convinced than not that God actually does exist, regardless of my equally strong conviction of the benefit derived from believing the opposite. So from the perspective of my belief systems, I have to be OK with allowing, nay encouraging, what I think is incorrect – belief in God – in the vast majority of the population so that we all reap the benefits of that structured belief system. While being equally convinced that I know better. I can’t think of a much more elitist proposition than that; it’s better for most everyone else to accept as axiomatic the metaphysics so they will accept the well established norms of behavior that they will not or cannot enforce on themselves without the metaphysics. But I am.
I can see how that might be thought of as insulting to believers; it is in no way intended to be so. I wish I could see a way out of the conundrum, but that’s where I’m at.
Religion is a Chersterton’s Fence issue for culture.
Don’t tear down the fence because you may not know what it holds in, or out.
I may have actually used the phrase “metaphysical Chesterton’s fence” in a draft.
The sort of nuance is the following: Is it necessary to maintain an actual belief in the concrete reality of a supernatural being that sits above it, governs it, and dictates/hands downs the rules by which we must live? Is that belief necessary in order to avoid tearing down the fence and finding out it was holding in? I think experience would probably lean yes, it is. But I, for my part, can’t do that.
Im with Spud, Faith and Religion are two separate things.
Christianity makes a fine religion, rules are easy to follow, lots of people like rules and lots like to tell others what to do. On the flip side, lots of people like to be told what to do.
That applies to any religion, some more than others.
Well said. Exactly where I am. We are superior, aren’t we. 🤨
We are superior, aren’t we
Well of course I am, jury’s still out for the rest.
“Of course how to protect that fundamentally human institution from the inevitable corruption and abuse that it will fall prey to is a separate and difficult question.” I usually roll my eyes at claims concerning either the predilection for little boys by priests, or children in general by teachers, and roll them both into a false paradigm used to discount any and all actions and or beliefs from those two areas of life.
Nothing in the tenants or pedagogy of either group, writ large or small, accepts the corruption of the young as an aspect of its existence. Thus, it is a false concept to attack either group with. Rather, this crime is one of humanity, and should be solely treated as such. Even the brushing under the carpet, so to speak, of the crime by agents of either church or bureaucracy, is to be put under the same rubric: a human crime carried out by humans.
“One that I’ll ignore.” Good call.
By the way, your changing from atheist to agnostic is basically a version of Pascal’s Wager.
Pascal’s Wager only works if there is only one god possible and his rules are very clear. “I don’t know, so I can’t say” is usually not an acceptable position any particular god, so his/hers/its heavenly rewards do not await the agnostic. It’s not a hedge it’s just being honest about what one can and can’t know.
Pascal’s Wager is a hedge, as is my wording. There is a reason I said version.
PW requires one to believe, agnostic don’t and thus gain nothing by being agnostic, not sure how that becomes some version of PW unless the version doesn’t require any of the conditions of PW. It’s Like saying Cincinnati chili is a version of chili even though it meets none of the requirements for chili.
Well, far too many people put beans in chili, and still happily use that term. If the Cleve wants to call that chili, than that is chili. Likewise, people eat ribs, and call it BBQ, notwithstanding that ribs are nonfood.
All of which doesn’t take away the fact that PW is a hedge. The point is specifically made in that it doesn’t cost one anything to believe, and the benefit from said belief is heaven. Thus, a hedge.
+1 someone else gets it
What I always found silly about Pascal’s Wager was that the God of the Bible (since it’s almost always brought up with specific reference to Christianity) would let you into heaven if you did not believe in your heart of hearts but just physically showed up in church every Sunday and faked it. Wouldn’t that just make you a lying blasphemer instead of just a blasphemer?
“Thus, it is a false concept to attack either group with.”
I think it’s fair to attack organizations that tolerate it or at least fall short when responding to it.
The organization, yes. The faith, no.
god is what we do together
no wait . . . that was socialism . . different religion
re-run from many moons ago:
All the following are deities from real religions except one. Can you Spot the Not?
1. NANGANANA, Death Goddess who punishes single men
2. AIZEN-MYOO, Deity of Lust Suppression
3. OA-ROVE, God of Gratuitous Violence
4. OYNYENA-MARIA, Assistant Goddess of Fire
5. GRAUDUSE, Goddess of Drowning
6. CHOCLATLPEC, Precious Night Turkey and God of Mystery
7. MEPHITIS, Goddess of Noxious Vapors
8. IYA, Evil God of rampaging pestilence
9. SHAKPANA, Plague God of Smallpox and Insanity
https://www.godchecker.com/
More like Mephartis amirite
I also am not religious, but decided a long time ago that following the bible would lead to the best outcome and cause the least problems in my life.
The Stoics call it “Living in accordance with nature”.
To me that means not being a dirt bag and cheating on my wife. Also lying and stealing go against that.
Can I substitute ethics for religion? I have a hard time with the god part.
I also have a hard time with the god part.
/former Sundee School teacher
/lost my religion when I realized the religious weren’t necessarily the good people*
*remembers the prominent church member who fixed our furnace but wanted sexual favors from my mother.
/religion does not fully equal morality
I consider faith and religion to be two separate issues.
As for corruption, I wasn’t really going to the whole abuse thing, honestly never crossed my mind. I was more considering that, given how powerful the belief system – rules, ideas, not metaphysical reality necessarily – is, it will inevitably get hijacked by people interested in power to be re-purposed for their own very decidedly short term ambitions, and one needs a mechanism to correct that, same for any system of rules, whether one calls it the church or the state.
I would disagree somewhat with casting my process as a sort of Pascal’s Wager. For me, it’s more a realization that I cannot know with certainty that God doesn’t exist despite my strong conviction that he doesn’t. I will admit it as a possibility. Not that I might as well believe (or allow room for the possibility of existence) because, after all, what’s the downside (I’m living that way anyway) against an eternity of hellfire? My oppositional-defiant disorder has quiet the opposite reaction to any sort of Pascal’s Wager argument!
Sorry, supposed to be a response to Zwak, all praise to Brooks, peace be upon him.
Inshallah.
Yeah this is pretty much where I am, I think.
IMO the main components of religion* are mythology, rules for living the best/happiest life one can, and rules for a prosperous and functional society (with some overlap in the personal and societal rules). The rules should be examined critically, but throwing out all the rules because you reject the mythology and find some rules that are outdated**, or because you can’t see how some personal rules are more beneficial to society than yourself, is a bad idea.
*by religion I mean somewhat traditional(ish?) forms of Christianity and Judaism as that’s what I’m most familiar with.
**hurr durr why come you no want adulterers stoned to death hurr
“some rules that are outdated”
*Chesterton peers over his spectacles*
Yes, well, as I said:
The rules should be examined critically
For example, I suspect that rules against homosexuality are rooted in the need for pre-modern cultures to produce as many children as possible, especially given the high rates of infant/child mortality. The infant/child mortality issues seem to have been mostly solved at this point, so that rule doesn’t appear to be necessary. (I realize that there is an issue with birth rates in first world countries, but that appears to have a number of causes other than ‘gays aren’t having babies’.)
And also that was more of a snark against radical atheists throwing down some random sentence out of the Bible and acting like it’s their atomic bomb argument, despite the fact that modern theologians seem to have come to terms with that argument quite some time ago.
Millstones are expensive.
Concrete shoes are far more Economical.
I’d say the rules against homosexuality are for children’s survival to adulthood as psychologically intact people.
Thoroughly enjoyable, I love when we get articles like these. A few points (take em or leave em):
– There’s more than a little stench of leftover faith-atheism in this theory, if only in the nomenclature and verbiage. Faith-atheists park their (genetic?) faith in absolute certainty of deities’ non-existence rather than vice-versa. And a key tenet in their faith (along with, regrettably, many “trad” religionists) is similarly an absolute certainty in their own intellectual and moral superiority. While you claim to have left behind the faith-atheism, your word choice of “elitism” seems to indicate a (possibly subconscious) residual belief in your own intellectual superiority. TL;DR – Even though they’re living in a way that preserves a properly-ordered society, these dumbass hicks still have to believe in their stupid Sky Daddy and I don’t so neener neener.
– I would argue that it’s a distinction without a difference. And further, my understanding (at least as one of (((them))) ) is that G-d doesn’t much care if you truly believe in Him or not as long as you live righteously and keep his Commandments.
– There’s also a bit of mind-reading of “the masses”. What makes you think there aren’t many (most?) people going to Church every Sunday that don’t feel the way you do? Kierkegaard would argue that what separates you from the “truly faithful” (whatever that means) is the proverbial “leap of faith”. There isn’t, nor could there ever be, concrete empirical evidence required for proof of G-d’s existence beyond a reasonable doubt. Therefore, *everyone* who’s ever put any significant thought into the “G-d problem” would find himself exactly where you are, they just decide to take the leap.
I’m not saying anyone should or shouldn’t do anything. Faith and relationship with G-d is personal and private, you do you. I’m just happy to see others struggling with the Big Question and writing about it here.
Have some tits for a great article.
https://d41bv1dk3s7lyi.archive.is/Ui4YB/6c9613fea0bf7b6e2faaa804da233e8b7637fef2.jpg
NSFW.
with a rebel yell she cried more more more
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdphvuyaV_I&list=RDVdphvuyaV_I&start_radio=1
Largely agree with all the points, ‘elitism’ whether residual or not, ‘mind reading’.
Those two sort of encapsulate the whole conundrum for me and the point I was trying to get across. If I think that a religious belief structure is advantageous or necessary for humans to thrive while simultaneously thinking that the likely hood of the physical reality of supernatural being passing down and enforcing that structure is very unlikely, I’m not sure how I can avoid the position of belief for thee, not for me, whether as a convenience or as an intellectual short coming.
Have some tits
I’m more of a foot or two down and 180 degree rotation sort of guy, but I can appreciate beauty in all … well most … of its forms. And I can wait until Wednesday.
The question is whether a belief in true existence is necessary to maintain the fence that creates the benefit. If I answer that affirmatively, I sort of have to claim some sort of insight if I’m going to maintain those positions simultaneously.
As for mind reading, I have to take people at their word. And of course there’s another dichotomy/contradiction – I cannot not really claim any sort of intellectual superiority as there are manifestly a countably large number of intellects vastly superior to mine that profess a belief in the physical existence of a god.
Well, that’s all sorts of f’d up. I’ll blame lack of blood flow to the brain given the 2 foot 180 degree rule.
https://d67218n06kycn0.archive.is/kREYp/9c009bc1f361a1c0e23e3207cdab93ac8910d802.jpg
NSFW.
I’ve always squared this circle by realizing what an odd duck I am in every other aspect of my humanity. I am a pretty unrepresentative example of the typical residents of all the pigeonholes I’ve inhabited. I’m a rather conservative city boy, I’m a gay who is revolted by the behavior of many of that cohort, etc. etc.
It’s a good thing I’m a loner cuz… yeah.
No one can First without commitment to The Great Firster. He shall smite you all.
Smite me Big Daddy.
Jefferson, Thomas and maybe George
https://www.monticello.org/research-education/thomas-jefferson-encyclopedia/jeffersons-religious-beliefs/
Abraham, Martin, and John?
As long we are addressing public gods this article fits the theme.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/how-public-health-discredited-itself/ar-AA1I6Vi2?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=HCTS&cvid=3d59154cd0b242b3b561aeda34de0f85&ei=166
When you lose “The Atlantic” on Wuhan and your entire professional POV. You need to consider what the dissidents are saying.
Interesting article BTW. Mahalo.
Thanks, dbl
Now I’m waiting for the effects of red dye to kick in. I may be overdue.
Several people told me I was tempting fate by not getting the covid vaccine but the family doc was not one of them.
4X, at some point in the arc of life, getting out of bed is tempting fate.
There is so much to be ragingly angry over all of that stuff that one can only shrug one’s shoulders. There is no recourse to all the gigantic injustices.
If there’s one thing that the radical left is good at it’s taking over previously trusted institutions, raping them to death for political gain and then leaving their broken corpses in a ditch on the side of the interstate.
Lots of little kids drowning might tend to question belief in God’s love and/or attention to those He created?
Why get mad at God when it was obviously Trump’s fault?
Only if you assume God is micromanaging every breath and footstep. Which we know some sects of various religions do believe so. Such beliefs don’t discount God, especially if one believes in free-will or natural selection or a god who hit play and has been dancing to disco
I can’t see an intelligent diety making that much extra workI did write an article on the basic tenets of my belief, which matched your point almost exactly.
The Bible supports such an assertion too; even if God meddled (or so sayeth the writers).
Regarding the injunction on the portion of the passed and signed legislation. Making a claim its a ‘backdoor’ anything isn’t valid for any court to rule on other than the Supreme Court or through various lower courts via normal means. You want to challenge it in court, fine, but I cannot see how a lower court can step in and place an injunction on legitimate legislation (legitimate as in it followed the normal rules of passing Congress and signed by the President).
My personal opinion – the injunction is outside of that judge’s authority.
Devil’s advocate opinion – the only legal theory that might hold water is if the organization is named in the statute and thus it became a bill of attainder.
I doubt that given the way bills are crafted when it comes to cutting off disfavored organizations. I haven’t seen the text, but I’d wager it’s written the same way as these have been for ages.
Sorry your trough is being taken away… actually, no I’m not, these people are monsters.
I thought that too…but did a CTRL-F for Planned Parenthood and nah….even so, wouldn’t matter. Doesn’t meet Bill of Attainder and squarely under the provisions of Congress. Fuck this judge
Come to think of it, where were all these judges when the Government was basically saying “DO WHAT WE SAY OR STARVE” 5 years ago.
Cheering it on.
Also, even if named, I do not think it would rise to a Bill of Attainder. They aren’t being criminally targeted and aren’t being denied rights in the basic sense. Just no more money.
I’m guessing they can’t, and we have something of a crisis on our hands.
Then the entire bill should be halted. It’s all or nothing. If the President doesn’t have line-item veto power, neither should some random federal court.
Excellent point
Unprecedented times! Trumphitler must be stopped! Only to be used against Drumpf! Norm breaking!
HURR DURR
Don’t forget the malleability of standing.
I had pork and beans for dinner… Pork Tenderloin with blackening seasoning and green beans with compound butter.
I made the joke when I bought the food this morning and had to share.
/nightmare flashbacks to childhood
It wasn’t a nightmare to me…it meant “eat whatever night!” Usually dad having to make due cause mom was working late. Either tuna fish or franks and beans.
This was great, Putrid, and is a much more fleshed-out out version of my own thoughts.
This is outstanding and plus+ much to glibblets for well-reasoned, interesting thoughts.
Tremendous day out. The brief rain turned Busch Gardens into a wasteland, with no lines on every single coaster. And a high up perch on a tall one, just as the sun was setting over the ocean. Damn. Biggest of big (non-family) moments today.
I’m also down my phone, my debit card and ID. That was dumb, but it’ll be OK. After two long, busy days, I plan on sleeping until my body damn well wants to wake.
Good read.
While I’m technically an atheist, I don’t really like that term because of what it’s associated with these days (yes, I’m ashamed to admit, I used to be one of the edgy teenagers challenging Christians to “debate” on the Internet and thought Richard Dawkins was the greatest genius who ever lived).
I’ve become increasingly positively disposed to the idea that religious ideas and specifically their manifestation in western culture provide a very good basis for how to order ones behavior and life.
This is pretty much my view on religions these days, although I’ve read more of the Eastern texts (Daoist, Buddhist, and recently Hindu).
It puts me in a weird place… I know that humans end up worshipping something or another, and without religion, that tends to be human institutions – not good. But I can’t get on board with the factual existence of a god. Therefore, I think it’s not true, but it’s better if most people believe it anyway…? I don’t know how to square that.
I came across a quote one time about Hinduism from a priest or guru or something (impeccable memory, I know): It was something along the lines of “The gods are the forms to teach you the concepts; once you understand the concepts, you don’t need the forms anymore”. It seems to say that of course the six-armed blue guy doesn’t literally exist, but him and all the others are illustrative of the forces that act on our lives. They’re ways of conveying to us that “you are very small in the universe, and your entire lifespan is just the blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things, but how you behave has a big impact, so don’t be a dick and try not to fuck everything up”.
I suppose I could consider myself religious in more of a philosophical sense than a theistic one. I like reading these texts and I’ve taken up meditation (very helpful even at the dilletante level at which I’m doing it). I plan to read all the major religious texts someday.
“The gods are the forms to teach you the concepts; once you understand the concepts, you don’t need the forms anymore”
From what I understand, Hindus (at least some, it is hard to generalize here) believe in one god as well, and the different gods are just aspects of the one.
That quote pretty nicely shows how something like Buddhism could grow out of Hinduism.
you are very small in the universe, and your entire lifespan is just the blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things, but how you behave has a big impact, so don’t be a dick and try not to fuck everything up
I didn’t even realize I was an Akira-ist.
Gonna be another warm one today. Stay frosty Glibs!
🔥☀️☕️
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzJj5-lubeM
🎶🎶
Good morning, Sean, Ted’S., TAFKALack, and slummy!
Good morning Miss
Morning. How goes?
Just survived the first hurdle of the day – putting ear drops in a cat’s ears (with assistance.) Lived to tell about it, nobody got hurt, just momentarily annoyed and inconvenienced. I think I can face whatever else the day holds in store.
Finished drafting last month’s Board meeting minutes yesterday, so it’s time to start to agenda for THIS month’s meeting. Hoping to get to the local rec center after work for some exercise for the first time in a few weeks, due to various schedule conflicts.
How are you?
My supervisor is back from berevement leave today, so we have to catch her up on work stuff. Trying to keep it as normal as possible.
I’m sorry for her loss, whatever it was. I imagine she’d appreciate “normal” upon her return.
I think the local news is mocking me. Showing a clearly non English speaking person being interviewed and over dubbing with English. Deport them all.
Everyone mocks you.
I can’t find it, but last year there was a village in Switzerland that had to be evacuated because of landslide fears. When the German broadcasters did a report on it, they used a translator for the parts where the villagers were speaking Schwyzerdutsch.
“Everyone mocks you.”
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
*throws apostrophes like ninja stars*
🥷🏻
I’m unfortunately in a similar boat.
I am trying to believe, I’m not sure that’s something you can consciously decide.
Mornin’, reprobates. I’ll be off to church later this morning. Our two young adult children are agnostic (special thanks to the Jesuits for helping the youngest Patzer ditch religion). They are also wonderful young men, I don’t think there’s a problem there. In life as in chess, you play what works.
Good morning, ‘patzie!
I wonder what the Jebbies’ ratio is with respect to winning v. losing souls. 😉
Are they evangelical agnostics?
That would involve interacting with people. So, probably not.
Good morning all.
Once again because I go to bed when I see chickens roosting, I have missed a very good article.
We have a natural desire to find ‘truth’ and we imagine that when we do the clouds will part, the angels will sing and a vast majestic vista will be lit with golden, heavenly light. We will be overcome with ‘Ahhhh, the wonder of it all!’ sentiment. Movies portray that all of the time. They even have a standard theme music for it.
That is not what happens.
You see the truth, recognize it and it is a moment of….Oh, of course. Why didnt I see that before?
You didnt see it before not because truth is hard to see but because it is hard to accept.
Good morning!
If you advertise yourself as a breakfast place, you really need to open by 6:00 at the latest.
The Wuhan Cold changed that for the worse.
Saw an article about how the plague killed in-person dining at places like McDonalds. I passed one the other day and sure enough the drive thru line wrapped all the way around the building and there were like three cars in the lot. People 🙄
“The gods are the forms to teach you the concepts; once you understand the concepts, you don’t need the forms anymore”
This. Organized religions are sets of parables to relay ideas. If y ou step back a bit and compare the different ‘brands’ you see the same ideas just related with different parables.
Every culture has that old guy with the long beard and robe sitting by his little fire in a cave or on top of a mountain. People go to him and ask “What does it all mean?”. Every one of them say the same thing, and they are right. The trouble is most people have no idea what he is talking about.
The wise men all say the same thing in much the same way the different religions are saying the same thing.
The Answer
I was sure you were gonna say ’42’.
The Question
suh’ fam
whats goody
/I really dont know how you people that do WFH manage. Not for me- I need an office.
Last week of vacation. Its actually eating me up that I am not working cause I know I will have to fix a bunch of dumbasses screwups over the two weeks
I have safety training the next two days, and its bothering me because I have two projects next week and stuff to get ready.
I don’t need an office and, more importantly, don’t need a long commute.
It is also nice for deliveries, appointments, and so many other reasons.
Also my office is two thousand miles from my house.