I randomly remembered that, in a linx thread a while ago, I posted a silly thought experiment. I decided at that time I would repeat it about every two years to see if the past two years changed any minds towards doing it… I will re-post now for fun. And probably in two years, should we still be around. I am torn if this is post worthy or just a comment in the links thread. I did change some things and expand a little on it to keep it fun. And it is long-ish for a comment. As always, I will add as a post and let TPTB decide whether it is worth posting as a filler. If not, I will add it as a comment.
Let’s say there was a Star-gate like device that would lead to planets just like Earth – not identical geographically but broadly similar, continents, oceans, mountains, gravity, climate, same flora and fauna – I mean exactly earth plants and animals, not analogs – just no humans, and nothing human made. The gate is open one way for a 3 month period every 5 years, switching direction every time. So outside the reverse period, you cannot go back to Earth, and you cannot even communicate / send messages to Earth. If you go back to Earth, you need to wait 5 years to return to Planet X.
There is also a device which accurately identifies the honest held ideology / faith of people, a perfect lie detector lets say. There would be a number of planets and would be designated based on this. You could have the libertarian planet, the socialist planet, the centrist planet etc. Also, the Catholic planet, the Shia/Sunni planet, the Jewish planet, the atheist planet etc. You could choose the planet if you fit the ideology. E.g. if you are a Catholic libertarian you can go either to the catholic or the libertarian planet. But the libertarian planet would have all sorts of faiths, while the Catholic planet may have all sorts of political views.
If you choose to leave and choose a planet, off course you can organize with other people who are going to the same place. Both as to what materials to bring and things like do not bring bad invasive species to a place or maybe avoid bringing STDs to the new world.
Each person can be transported to the planet with container 20’x20’x10′ worth of stuff; in this size you can build it to your specs and it can be emptied and used as shelter before any house is built. The person gets in the container and is transported (does not need to go to the gate) to the planet of their choice. The first trip is known 2 years in advance for people to get ready. A limitation is that there needs to be room , so basically on the new planet there is an arrival area and you end up where there is room. Let’s assume the arrival is in a sort of plain area, not too rugged, close to a navigable river, but off course no roads / bridges exist. Everything needs to be built and everything not brought from earth needs to be made. You can off course hunt and forage everything that exists on the new planet, and the plants and wild game would be abundant. In order to go back to Earth when possible you need to return to the arrival area if you move on the planet.
No non-libertarian (lets say big tent libertarian, though you could have an explicit an-cap planet) is allowed to go to the libertarian planet, exception being a +1 in case of marriage and children (defined as under 18). If you are not a faithful Mormon, you will not be allowed on a Mormon planet. And so on. There are sufficient planets e.g. a few dozen or so that there are no huge conflicts between ideologies, each can go to their planet. But not an infinite amount to atomize things too much. I am curious how many non anarchist libertarians on Earth would become more anarchist on Planet X, as the social and geopolitical conditions would no longer be that important as factors.
There could be a contract signed in advance, a constitution drafted. Though enforcement would be up the the people going. And off course groups can for and disperse enough over time, there would be plenty space at first. Basic infrastructure could be built, but for local materials beyond what each person brings, local mining needs to exist. If you want GPS on the new planet you off course need to get to the point of launching a rocket in space. People could talk in advance to form groups among people willing to go have a mix of doctors, engineers, builders, farmers, men, women etc or just let it naturally happen. Also I assume there would be a vote for the name of the place.
The questions for the glibs are: would you personally do it and how many people on earth do you think would do it? Enough to have a critical mass so people would want to do it? Would existing governments make plans to take over non libertarian, non anarchist planets? Would that be viable with the 10 year no communications?
I assume various religious sects would take the opportunity. Would any libertarians? I am certain libertarians would. Maybe some socialists, though they may starve. Overall more right than left as I assume there are more on the left with no life skills that would be useful for off grid living. Would you as a libertarian prefer to go to the libertarian world or to the world of your religion? Would 50k/100k libertarians be willing to be isolated from earth in this way to attempt libertopia? Would they get enough women to come with? Would more be willing to go if the first wave built some stuff? Would the first wave expect special recognition for pioneering? Or would they selflessly trailblaze. Is it moral to take kids with you (though I guess 500 years ago going to America was almost the same for Europeans)? What political changes to the world would drive you to go? Are you closer than 2 years ago?
It is a large number of questions but I do not have a good way except to dump them all and let people answer if they like.
There are off course all sorts of risks. Injury or some disease for which a cure may exist on earth but not on Libertopia One. Comfort at first would be lower. No modern housing,modern hospitals, internet, no satellites, no GPS, no ROADZ. Clean air and water, plenty of wood to build with (if we consider you travel to a North America analogue). Probably plenty land to homestead. I assume given the level of technical knowledge you could build decent essential stuff pretty fast. Bring tools, generators, solar panels, fuels until you can develop local resources. I wonder about children born on Planet X, but I am thinking people inclined to leave would be people inclined to have kids.
The issue is the 5 years of not being able to go back/communicate with earth. Initially I had it at 10 but decided to bring it down a notch. Would 10 be a major influence, or people who would go would go with 10 minimum?
A variation to the though experiment: what if going, you get a pill bringing your body back to age 25 in good health (your knowledge stays the same) with the caveat that you would not be allowed to go back to earth for the number of years you gained rounded up to a multiple of 10. E.g if you are 60 now you could not return for 40 years. The pill could be used one time, never get a second. You cannot get the pill and stay on Earth, you take the pill you need to go on the first trip available, no excuses, otherwise you just drop dead. If the pill option existed, would you do it now or wait some more years on Earth and do it later? I am thinking something like if you have children, wait until they are adults and can make their own way; or simply choose to live bit more on earth, give the old liver some hell but not too much, and then go; or just wait for a later age to make the pill count more; or take the time to learn skills e.g. hunting, fishing, carpentry, how to make mead/beer/wine/moonshine out of wild plants and wild honey, the essentials. Though if you die unexpectedly e.g. accident, murder, aneurysm etc, you die and it is final. Also waiting to much may run the risk that, if too many go, they tank the economy by selling their shit on earth, and your shit wont be worth much. Or you will not be able to buy the supplies you want for your container.
Hmmm… this is getting way to complicated now that I think of it. But anyhoo it’s all for fun.
One more for fun: if you and your current life partner would both go and the the pill exists, would you stay together or want some variety? Like find someone old who was hot when young and hook up for the post pill fun.
What were the answers last time? Most of course did not answer. I did not expect them too, obviously, it was just a random comment in a random thread.
In 2020 users who seemed willing to go were Atanarjuat, Suthenboy, leon, Fourscore(maybe) and Cannoli (if enough of her family would come)
No one explicitly said they would not go
In 2022
Would go: SDF-7, pistoffnick, Brawndo(Go through, then destroy the gate,) Fourscore (said You bring smoked salmon, I’ll bring a chain saw. And I interpret that as a yes)
Would not go: Urthona, R C Dean, The Hyperbole, Animal (I am not sure this included the pill scenario or not as there were mentions of age. Age and Brussels sprouts.)
So… two years later… how y’all feeling about this? Go with the pill? Go even if the pill is not an option (I assume most want the pill if it exists, why not…)? Stay on ol’ Terra?
There’s a book series that covers a similar setup, it starts with A Million Open Doors. Where different cultures could purchase a planet (or portion of one) to be settled with their culture (existing ones or ones made from whole cloth). It was originally a one way trip, leaving Earth behind. The conflict at the beginning of the stories is that FTL travel has been discovered, and these various cultures can now decide to rejoin humanity as a whole.
and here I thought it was original 🙁
And I meant no disrespect, or to come across that way, if I did, I apologize. I enjoy the books (as well as most of the books by that author), the issue is that they are not happy and cheerful reads.
it did not come across that way. I was half joking by original. I did not know works with quite this topic, but I assume most things I think have been thought before
Glad to hear it came across the way I intended. Pretty sure our own Sugarfree is the only other person I’ve met in the wild who has read the author.
also your link is broooken
Thanks. I have corrected it.
I’ve read Mother of Storms by him, but I have to say I didn’t find it very interesting. This one sounds much better, and I will check it out if I come across a copy in my travels.
Oh, and to answer your question: no. I have a medical condition, and would rather not be too removed from my medicines.
25 years ago? Oh, hell yeah.
take the pill, medical condition go away, you 25 again in perfect heath
I’ve read two of his books in the meme wars series. Both were very good.
anyhoo to the point 🙂 would?
I would be perfectly willing to attempt to homestead a new planet. The girlfriend would not. She considers cabin camping the epitome of roughing it.
Terry Pratchett’s “Long Earth” series.
And S.M. Anderson’s “A Bright Shore”.
related
***
Science fiction writer Charles Stross wrote a critical essay with a similar title on the feasibility of interstellar space travel and making practical use of various moons and planets in the Solar System: The High Frontier: Redux.[3] Stross’s criticisms do not directly apply to the O’Neill’s “High Frontier” document about colonizing interplanetary space.
***
https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2007/06/the_high_frontier_redux.html
Basically, people like being around each other for the most part, and since people prefer certain in environments, there will always be unsettled planets, even if they are habitable, just like there are unsettled regions of earth like Antarctica and the Gobi Desert. Antarctica and the Gobi Desert are far more habitable and easier to reach than any planet or moon that could be reached in a reasonable amount of time with current technology.
it is a reason I made my world perfectly habitable not a moon or desert.
2024 – I ain’t going.
is that because you don’t know how to fish?
Actually, I can fish and hunt. I ain’t going.
but can you tango?
Nope.
I knew there was something off about you.
anyhoo feel free to go off topic. The topic is weird.
I like the ECBP but prefer scotch at thee same price point. Better said this is better but not much better for me than the much cheaper wild turkey rare breed or Michter’s single barrel rye
i should add some water see how it changes
At 120 proof? Hell yes you should add water.
Prefer Scotch? What fresh hell is this?
The ranking goes Irish>bourbon>canadian>>>>>>>>>>scotch.
*removes Zwak from will*
You are an insane person and should not be on the internet
Dude.
#fail
That does not sound appealing to me. So no.
I think more than a few religions would not go to a planet just for their religion, because with many religions there is a goal of converting nonbelievers, and on the new planets there would be nobody to convert.
would the Amish go or they prefer to trade with normies?
That’s a good question. I think Neph has it right, below. You’d see sects that are more strict that would go, and sects that would rather stay mixed with the normies.
I think there would totally be an Amish planet.
They might not even notice anything was different.
what would the kids do for their Rumspringa ?
Go to Earth for five years, duh.
damn ya got me
Pretty sure most religious groups would split into various factions, which would then break into others until you’ve reached some level of parity between them. There would also be several interesting theological debates in quite a few religions based on the other planets themselves. I could also see some interesting theological drifting in the more hierarchical religions with the communications delay.
I’m still in.
The pill is an interesting twist. I’ll have to cogitate on that.
Also reminds me a little of Vinge’s “Marooned in Realtime” – where folks who “bobbled” in 2200 had pretty good tech they brought with them, but folks a few decades later who “left the timestream” to pop out a few millenia later had exponentially more powerful tech/defenses for the same price. Definitely a potential risk – but if you have the chance to make a round-trip every 10 yrs or so, might be better.
It’s something I’d consider if I had my finances a bit more prepped in advance.
On the time dilation side, there’s both Ender’s Game and The Forever War that deal with varying tech levels for different fights.
Gene Wolfe’s Earth of the New Sun series deals with this, albeit in a much more Baroque way.
Of course, that series also deals with time travel, being your own parent, and an host of other time conundrums.
You open a new fronteir, and people will swarm to it looking for opportunities they feel shut out of at home.
The ideological sorting will break down once on the other side as the existing institutions are unable to enforce their will, and even if you want to count on self-enforcement of ideological conformity, one need only look at the pilgrims of New England to see how quickly schism and the hand of reality interferes with the initial plan.
I am not sure modern libertarians are equivalent to the pilgrims
Humans are humans.
You start a colony based upon a predefined principle with a charter – personalities and unexpected events will overturn the initial plan.
Except… New Englanders are still moralistic busybody prude conformists 400 years later.
Eh, maybe not Bew England in general, but MA, CT and RI.
One can also look to the Spanish south of the equator for an example of human behavior via “new lands”.
if i remember in The Expanse the Mormons were building a huge ship to leave earth, maybe they would want to go to Mormonia…
So I figured I’d test the 36 guage wire, wired up a quick protoboard with a battery connector and a few wires to lay a span of it in a fuse-like role between them…
The batteries started getting hot from the short before the wire did.
36ga? Do you cut that by looking at it crossly?
I’m still on board, I’d bring a younger lady so procreation would go on even if I couldn’t.
Hope we can leave before April 15th though.
/Looks at new chain saw prices
you need to learn how to keep bees alive in the winter 🙂
True that. Hopefully I’d land in a more moderate climate
I said North America analog I should have picked a middling climate but I forgot… No idea what that is North Carolina or Kentucky
Kentucky is nice in the middle. You get snow, but not annoying amounts very often, and some years you dont get any. You get heat, but not Charleston/Florida oppressive heat/humidity.
Reading through that makes me wonder how many people spent a winter in the New World and then hopped the next boat back to civilization.
I just heard yesterday that in 1908-25 about 40-60% of immigrants went home. The variation was between source countries, but even on the low end it was 40%. There was a recession in 1907 and low paid workers were not wanted. And with no modern welfare state, lots of Italians, for example, decided that the village back home was more appealing.
OTOH, it was 5% for jewish immigrants.
And didn’t this happen with Mexican immigrants after 2008?
Did the Italians go home, or to somewhere else, like Argentina?
You know who else maybe went to Argentina…
??? I recall, touring Ellis Island , that the returnees were less than 10 percent and many of those went home just to eventually bring new wife or family back to the U.S.
Nice article. I enjoyed it. I have been relatively black pilled lately, so this is my bitter old man take:
Libertarians are about 1% of the population. I think this holds true from generation to generation. You could maybe try to teach kids from birth, get it up to 5%.
So if every libertarian on earth left to a new planet, it would be libertopia for maybe two or three generations, then begin the steady slide towards collectivist commie thought. Maybe 100 years later it would be unrecognizable.
I typed this on the freakin’ phone, do I get bonus libertopia points?
I have to agree, which affects my answer to the question.
Aren’t you the optimist.
Aktchually, libertarian-leaning people comprise about 7% of the population across all cultures, and yes, that holds true generation to generation.
I am in a dark place lately.
Solution: A law that says” If You Want To Be A Commie, Go to Commie Planet at the First Opportunity. Good Luck.”
In F. Paul Wilson’s LaNague stories, on the planet Tolive, anyone who has reached the age of 18 or is a new arrival signs a contract with the planet. First law is the Non-Aggression Principle. There’s a schedule of punishments for violating the law, and that’s just about all the laws there are. Those who don’t want to sign the contract presumably get a ticket off-planet. One way. Yes, there’s taxation – people have to pay for the police and the courts – but at a maximum rate of five percent.
Would I go to a planet like that? If I could be 25 again, hell yes.
Oh, and one addition: The contract can’t be changed, altered, infringed or adulterated.
As I was in my 20s or 30s I would go. Now, not likely.
That’s where the addition of the pill that reverts your body to physical peak comes in.
I would choose the libertarian planet, but there is a catch.
People are largely herd animals. Additionally when I look at the world I see it like one of those Indiana Jones movie scenes with the snake pit or a seething sea of vermin but with grifters and power mongers rather than bugs or snakes. We may not import them we would hatch plenty of them. Over time the rot of collectivism and barbarism would infect the place.
At least for my lifetime I would likely be safe but my progeny…
The only advantage would be freedom from the poisonous ideologies we currently suffer. Of course similar ones would arise on their own.
From last thread on the language police: I went to buy rat shot at Walmart very recently. I asked for Rat Shot.
With a stern face and a stern voice the sporting goods lady (in her early 60’s) told me matter of factly “We dont call it rat shot anymore, it’s vermin control”.
“I see. Well, do you have any rat shot?” – I couldn’t help myself
“WE DONT CALL IT RAT SHOT ANYMORE”
Me: “Call it what you want, I want rat shot.”
Her: “NO”
Me: “You dont have any rat shot or I cant have it?”
She was red in the face at this point and grinding her teeth. “WE DONT HAVE IT AND WE DONT CALL IT THAT ANYMORE. IT IS VERMIN CONTROL.”
Me: “Do. you know when you might get some rat shot in?”
Her: “NO”
Fuck that moran. I didn’t say a word, just walked away. I was both amused and disturbed at the same time. I suppose we are going to run into more and more of that horseshit.
I ended up ordering some straight from CCI. My RAT SHOT just arrived a few minutes ago.
“It works on politicians?”
Beat me to it.
Oh, regarding homegrown garbage I forgot to add the quip “Wherever you go, there. you are.”
I was told if you use the word vermin you are signaling your nazi sympathies
If you could forcibly transport every socialist to socialistsplanets and stay on earth would you do it or is that genocide?
The socialists would go willingly to free themselves from fascists. What happens to them next might surprise you!
Unless you are a libertarian. You would know to never visit socialistsplanet because the stench of corpses would be overwhelming.
Don’t you remember Hammer City?
🤣
Is that where everyone wears parachute pants?
You would know to never visit socialistsplanet because the stench of corpses would be overwhelming.
That and they’d steal all your shit when you got there.
I’m sure some would eventually survive, but the carnage would be incredible.
The Pilgrims in the US tried socialism then move to private property. Even Lenin moved a bit toward freer markets with his New Economic Policy.
https://www.aier.org/article/the-pilgrims-tried-socialism-and-it-failed/
They would either figure it out or die of starvation.
“…would you do it or is that genocide?”
Yes. Yes I would and who cares?
My guess is that the founding principles of Libertopia might last for a little while, but eventually people would self organize using other ideas anyway. Probably within a few generations, if not sooner.
The religious planets would probably have a tighter hold on people, but would eventually splinter into separate factions that hated each other.
The pill is tempting for somebody older whose kids are grown, of course. That’s a tough decision.
If you could forcibly transport every socialist to socialistsplanets and stay on earth would you do it or is that genocide?
Self defense.
The original Stargate had a solution; you just need Kurt Russell to volunteer to set it off.
I’d go, particularly with the “young again” pill option.
Like RJ above, I’m pretty black-pilled these days. I’d go with my religion and race these days. Not so much because I have anything against other races or religions. I’m just sick of hearing about it.
Maybe parasitic politicians will always try exploit cracks in society and those are the easiest. Most western European nations were homogeneous societies, so their politicians started importing foreigners as fast as possible to create those divisions to exploit.
Could the magic filter machines keep everyone inclined towards politics on Earth? Better yet, send them all to the same planet with no return.
I’d be willing to lay down a sizable chunk of change that any single race planet would within 10 years have developed some way to split the people into new classifications (if they didn’t just go to more narrowly defining races).
See all Go God Go
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BZjIzMWY1ZjItMmM3Yi00YWFmLWIxZmEtNTFjZDFlNzlkZjNiXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMjQ3MjU3NTU@._V1_.jpg
Thanks. That was in my head, but I was too lazy to go find it.
I go a little simpler.
Another fine choice.
Israel is the only religious ethno-state I can think of and they certainly have contentious politics.
I was thinking more like Scandinavian countries before we gave them the woke bug.
Israel still has all of the other countries to point at as an “other”.
To be fair, all of those other countries point right back at Israel.
“the only religious ethno-state”
Saudi, maybe? Possibly some of the other Muslim/Sharia countries. They’re halfway there with sharia, after all.
And the Israelis do allow non-Jews to be citizens, I believe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin
“…we’ll give some land to the niggers and the chinks. But we don’t want the Irish!”
Always on the outside looking in.
I don’t think homogeneous populations would work. You need diversity* of thought, as well as diversity of skills for effective problem solving.
*no, it’s not sarcasm
Come on, just imagine how wonderful the Gender/Race Studies majors would organize their society!
Not to mention the Glee Club!
so if people are still up to answering (as I said go OT anytime) what is the largest item you would take with you? How many people should get together to get part for a tractor or crane?
A portable shop that could run on a water wheel. Band saw, vertical and horizontal mills/lathe, welding tools, hand tools, the lot. All in a railroad container. Tools to male other tools and fix things.
how would you fuel this tractor or crane?
crane can have electric motor with solar panels.
tractor bring gasoline with you
wood steam crane and tractor !
You can’t carry enough fuel to make it worth the while. You will run out long before you have the ability to make more.
It’s feasible to make enough alcohol to run an internal combustion engine for practical purposes. Assuming you can harvest grains locally, you can bring yeast, fermenters, and stills to make a continuous supply of ethanol to run machines to jump start a new industrial revolution on the new planet.
It’s still going to take generations to build up any kind of “comfortable” lifestyle.
The crane would be “fueled” (read powered by) a waterwheel. Which, having been done in the past, would be used to power a machine shop, which can build a steam engine and boiler, using wood to feed the boiler. This is just from looking at RJ’s comment, and extrapolating from it.
Tractors? Pardon me, by that is what we have orphans for!
Yes, pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps.
It can be done. You can potentially compress 400 years of industrialization on earth into 40 years on new earth. But that’s a hard life for 40 years just so that late comers can enjoy a good life.
To a greater or lesser degree, anyone who is thinking about this along the lines of technology is already out. Most of the world doesn’t live at our modern tech level; think of central Africa, most of Asia, Australian Aboriginals, etc.
No, the dividing line would be ideological; how bad do you want to remain free of the incursions of groups like the US gov’t, the EU, and so on. When that push gets close enough, then people will take up the call. As I said below, this situation is analogous to Europe and the New World circa 1550. And, when Mars/space is a reasonable idea, it too will fall under those lines.
To a greater or lesser degree, anyone who is thinking about this along the lines of technology is already out. Most of the world doesn’t live at our modern tech level; think of central Africa, most of Asia, Australian Aboriginals, etc.
As I said. The new world would be a pre-industrial society for many generations.
enough people and enough containers from old earth maybe not that many generations
You are talking about a planned economy involving at least 100s of thousand of people to achieve anything remotely like the modern world.
That’s not libertarian.
i am not!!! we can I pencil ourselves to civilization in a fair time
I would stick with animals instead of mechanical devices. They can breed more, and when just getting started, provide food and labor.
Of course, I also am seeing this through the window of multiple Heinlein novels that talk about settling different planets.
A stargate.
A few years ago I saw some engineer talking about the blueprints he was creating to bootstrap a planetary settlement. He had designs for things like a really easy to build all-terrain buggy. I can’t remember if it was YouTube or TV so my chances of finding it and zero.
A still. Alcohol is a libation, an antiseptic, and a fuel.
No, I would not go. I would not leave the modern world to return to a primitive life even if I go to be 25 again.
but who would make the mead?
But who would keep the bees?
Fourscore duh
It would be all fun and games until someone gets an infection.
you can bring plenty of antibiotics
You gave very limited container space to account for every need in this scenario.
I mean I had to keep thing interesting. Hence the limits. If the experiment was continuous gate both way go there and back whenever you want bring howevermuch…
people would go on holiday to camp fish hunt.
I could lift all limits for quantity of stuff per person as long as you can get the cash to buy. but travel restrictions should still be in place.
I think the constraints are fine, you have a few biters.
Also, I work in a cubicle and hate it so there would be some temptation to go.
you can bring plenty of antibiotics
Not enough to live a complete life.
Unless, this new society is based on a constant influx of modern goods from earth, the best the new world can hope to achieve is a pre-industrial life style for the first half dozen or so generations. Even this assumes that the new location has nearby stone to be quarried and ores to be mined, smelted, and hammered out into useful tools. Otherwise everyone will be living in mud huts and living a hunter-gatherer society. It will be tough to even equal the Romans in the first couple of generations.
people would keep coming.
Correct. But those people are bringing their own stuff. They are not going to be pack mules bringing goods for earlier settlers. Unless, the later people are coming specifically as merchants. Bring stuff from earth, sell it all, buy what you need from the early settlers. Either way, it’s still an unsustainable system where a constant flow of critical products are brought in from earth until modern pharmaceuticals can be produced in the new world. You’d be trying replicate 400 years of industrialization in as few generations as possible.
they would bring some trade goods because clearly the early settlers would have stuff they want.
if i think the people before me have saw mills and some agriculture i may want to trade with them
also you can plan ahead with friends to go in waives, some willing to go earlier, some later, talk about what to bring.
you have a lot of objections you just don’t want to share the mead (joking i like that people point out problems with my idea )
It’s a great article.
I tend to think in terms of a more realistic “shit hits the fan” scenario where the modern world crumbles around us. And yes, having skills like wood working and mead making would be highly valuable in this sad new world. But it is not something I would choose to go into freely.
And I have a life time of sci fi stories pondering the colonization of new worlds. But my medievalist hobbies make it abundantly clear just how hard a life this would be for anyone in the first 100 years or so of colonization.
what is the largest item you would take with you?
A steam engine (stationary powerplant).
Let’s assume the arrival is in a sort of plain area He said plain not forest. How are you going to fuel the steam engine?
I mean plain as in not very mountainous not prairie. there may b mountains nearby but you do not land on top of one. I said plenty of wood.
Missed that.
coal?
eventually.
They released the the trailer for X-Men 97, a continuation of the cartoon series from the 90s. The animation looks like shit. It looks like it’s 15 frames a second. Here is the original to compare it to, as the clips of the original they use in the trailer are from the last season, which had shit animation.
I watched a ton of the original back in the day. I don’t like the new. looks off.
Watched some it. Did the X-Men ever win a fight in that series?
They’re both pretty crappy.
Young Patzer would have jumped at the chance to migrate to libertopia. Freedom! Current me realizes that young Patzer possessed no skills relevant to establishing a new society. Being really good with designing and implementing silicon-based logic processes wouldn’t be particularly useful until far into some hypothetical future. So, no way, nohow.
Wait a few cycles after the gates opened so that it wouldn’t be a complete unexplored land, take the pill and go.
just have to bee careful not to die till then.
need to know how to give the liver hell but not too much 🙂
tractor bring gasoline with you
Ethanol, in the absence of petroleum, can be made to work. It’s dumb as a direct replacement, but if it’s your best-case option, it works.
Wait a few cycles after the gates opened so that it wouldn’t be a complete unexplored land, take the pill and go.
*points, screeches*
Free rider!
hence “Would the first wave expect special recognition for pioneering? Or would they selflessly trailblaze. “
Or selflessly trailblaze, then wall up the gate.
What happened at the end of Terra Nova season 1 – which turned out to be the end of the series (dammit!).
ah the Brawndo startegy
Bah. I’d bring with me useful trade goods, like newly printed porn.
The great thing about waiting a few cycles is you’d have reports of what they actually needed in Libertopion.
And of course, ammo.
Relatedly, I’d definitely bring simpler, more modern guns with me. CZ75 > 1911.
CZ75 > 1911.
QFT.
hence “Would the first wave expect special recognition for pioneering? Or would they selflessly trailblaze. “
Barring outright confiscation (No Socialists wanted!) I don’t really see much of a problem. Newcomers will piggyback on the achievements of their predecessors, but it has always been thus. Not only do they benefit from what has been done before, they add to it.
The animation looks like shit. It looks like it’s 15 frames a second.
Still better than Hanna-Barbera, though?
Detail wise, yes. Fluidity of motion? No. Looks they are trying to go from some shitty anime look.
Oregon Trail was fun to play as a kid (on a computer) but no, I would not want to travel the trail in 1835.
Also, camping sucks.
I used to camp all the time. And then I graduated college and have never camped since.
“I used to camp all the time. ”
But then I retired from the army
First trip out is a big ol’ hell no. No industrial base, no infrastructure, and a brand new social structure.
I’m literally watching right now as this high tech milling machine creates a tooth crown for me. Ain’t gonna have that tech first trip pioneering.
I’d go, oh to be young again. Libertarian, minarchist, atheist planet please. Draft animals, ploughs, seed, chainsaws, small saw mill, nails, screws. Probably parts for larger projects such as the machine shop equipment listed above, maybe mining equipment. I think it would be interesting and if everyone agreed politically it would be nice for the first few years, at least. Without religion I think the chances of splitting and strife goes down, I could be mistaken, but that is my gut instinct. Hopefully my wife would join me, I’d like to have another go-around-again with her. My son would probably opt-out even though he is libertarian, he requires the comforts of earth, as would my daughter. But my best friend would go, and he can build ROADZ. It would be difficult and demanding, but over time I believe I could make a go of it.
Yeah, but since there are no libertarian women, it could be lonely.
I did not answer myself in the post but I think if I was closing in on my 70s I would go with the pill just to be young and healthy again even in a new land rather than death…
if I was closing in on my 70s I would go with the pill just to be young and healthy
That is the only possible draw for me (and I am closing in on m 70s).
Per your rules, I would need to commit to living in the new world for 50 years. There is no coming back. It’s not a vacation from the modern world.
yes. or death. I think hard choice for me but I am not at peace with death. Now. Maybe later I ill be . maybe not. dunno. hence thought experiment.
It’s an interesting thought experiment. Do you choose 20 to 25 more years in the current world, or 50 plus years in a primitive world. This assume of course you can actually survive 50 years of life in a primitive world. More than likely, you would not survive past your 50s after a life of hard physical labor just to keep yourself housed, fed, and clothed.
but if you goo after 20-30 years from first settlement with a bunch of modern stuff it would be slightly better than 500 years ago. maybe modern permaculture would make the labor easier. but i dot know what i wold do if faced with the thing
You might die from starvation the first winter. I’d have to be in pretty desperate straits to take that risk.
Correct
maybe I m wrong but you could fit a bunch of MREs in you container. Is the container I chose that small?
You (collectively!) would have the great repository of modern knowledge upon embarkation. It’s not as if you would be forced to re-imagine the great inventions of modernity from scratch.
It takes certain population sizes to maintain technologies.
Re: the pill option … not right now. If the opportunity arose toward the end of my life, I’d go. Better being 25 in a really hazardous environment with primative technology than in ill health a year or so away from death.
Yes. Tools to make tools would be what I would bring, per my comment above. Kick start some basic industrialization.
The U.S. is loaded with failed utopian cities. The utopias failed, many of the towns survived as the free market, like John Barleycorn, proved the strongest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZgnnQqIcLQ
One of the weird but funny things about my life is that my Grandfather was born in a utopian society just outside of L.A.Little Landers , they were called. But the whole thing failed due to picking a shitty spot.
So he went to high school in Oakland.
I mean I had to keep thing interesting. Hence the limits. If the experiment was continuous gate both way go there and back whenever you want bring howevermuch…
I agree. The scenario requires a serious commitment, not just casual dilettante tourism.
one rule of lbertopia one when internet comes threading comments should be mandatory
It really isn’t too different than a journey to the New World, a la The Americas, circa 1550.
you can distill wine to make brandy, beer to make whisky, cider to make calvados. did anyone ever distill mead?
I have friends that have made “meadshine”. It was quite good. It was a single distillation. So, there was still a substantial mead flavor left.
Yes, but I don’t think in enough abundance to gain its own category.
A local distillery makes a distillate that’s from fermented and then distilled maple syrup. It’s quite tasty.
When I grew up many small rural communities had common items….one rifle….one anvil….etc.
Expensive items like that were ‘borrowed’ and passed around.
In the same vein an organized group could divvy up different tasks ‘Galt’s Gulch’ style.
One guy brings all of the fuel making supplies, one the metal working supplies, one the medical supplies etc.
That would allow for each to have a profession and the community as a whole access to more resources and services.
i said “People could talk in advance to form groups among people willing to go have a mix of doctors, engineers, builders, farmers, men, women etc or just let it naturally happen.” this could apply to what to bring.
the pill would raise the question how many terminally ill patients would take it… if you are young and not gain many years, you would only need to spend 10 on a savage world to be healed…
I don’t recall this a couple years ago. If the only way to get the de-aging pill is to go, I’d likely go. But not without Mrs. Dean.
Libertopia might only last a few generations, but my view on that is that future generations are on their own regardless. It would be an improvement on our current kakistoctratic anarchy-totalitarian corruptocracy here while I was still around at least.
Packing my shipping container would be a very interesting exercise. Much would depend on how developed the new planet was when I got there. If it’s basically a frontier planet, then probably a good supply of hand tools and trade goods. Teaming up with other expats before leaving to bring pieces of industrial technology would be interesting, too.
If the only way to get the de-aging pill is to go, – it is
But not without Mrs. Dean. – ask her and report back
Much would depend on how developed the new planet was when I got there – I mean starting now, how many years could you wait? 10? 20? that is how much frontier
If I was 25, I’d be willing to go first wave. The comment on development was more about what to bring.
As far as Mrs. Dean goes, if she says no, that’s it for me.
The two year lead time is an excellent idea. Not just to settle affairs and spec out your two cargo containers (20x20x10 is pretty close to two Conexs), but to get started learning some of the skills you would need.
You can fit a shitload of stuff into two 20 foot Conexes (which are 8 feet across, 8 – 10 feet high, and 20 feet long, if memory serves). Think about how much space everything you own took up last time you moved. For us, that was probably about one 20 foot Conex, and of course we wouldn’t take most of it to a frontier situation.
Mrs. Prole wouldn’t go to any primitive planet, and especially not Libertopia, and really really not a place without Starbucks. Maybe if one of us had terminal cancer or whatnot she might reconsider.
Would be an interesting conversation, vehemently pointing out the clusterfuck Progtopia would quickly devolve into: “How good are you at digging ditches to take your comrades to, to be shot?”
Yeah, Frau Zwak loves glamping, which I think is stupid. I love backpacking (or, used to) which she hates. Like I said above, I have a medical condition, which I don’t think would go away just due to time. I would still know it was coming, and would really want the medical intervention that makes living with it bearable.
well i clarified the pill solves all conditions. so 25 perfect health no genetic stuff for the future
After watching those “Off the Grid” shows, I know Mrs. TOK wouldn’t go anywhere if you had to poop in a bucket.
a bucket? oh are we to fancy for a hole in the ground?
That would require going outside in the cold, rain, and dark. So even worse than the bucket.
when i was a kid i holidayed at grandma’s in the country. the toilet was a latrine made of wood some 25 meters from the house. in winter it was tough. the latrine was made of wood boards not that tightly fit and when the wind was howling at minus 15C shitting was an adventure
I’d probably go in about 20 years, taking the pill then. I’d find out what has value on Planet Libertopia, pack a shitload of it, and arrive as the new Elon Musk. I figure by then I could buy most of what I want/need. Maybe bring a SMR for power generation if one would fit in my allotment of space.
you think SMRs will get that small in 20 years?
Maybe. Of course by then fusion power will only be ten years away.
I was thinking the same thing about an SMR. That raises another question, of course – what will the power be used for? Will people use some of their limited container space for electrical equipment? Wiring? The SMR could be a huge accelerant for development, but it presumes that there is something to use the electricity it generates.
And of course, running the damn thing. How many people would that take, with what training?
maybe in a land with plenty rivers hidro would be better for initial power needs.
https://twitter.com/voxdotcom/status/1758164205973254520
Who had on their 2024 Bingo Card that Vox would promote what they mocked in 2020?
/looks outside
Well… it is a bit cloudy right now.
Mass skin cancer for the win!
Much would depend on how developed the new planet was when I got there.
To expand on my point above about the “knowledge base” I think infrastructure would arise on a greatly accelerated timeline compared to historical earth’s organic development. Lessons of the past, and all.
True.
a pill bringing your body back to age 25 in good health also means removing any genetic disease not just acquired
Ok I’m in.
I would probably opt for the pill, and take the wife to Libertopia. Catholic Planet will probably wind up like medieval Europe where the church determines who stays in power.
I am however tempted to simply round up socialists and send them all to their own planet. Why should they get a developed planet?
Why would they want a developed planet? The entire communist project is about washing away all the wrong think from the past and programming man with perfected communist thinking. Think of all the time they could save if they didn’t have to do all that culling of the those pesky individualist thinkers. It’s not like commies are really secretly just vindictive hate-filled aholes who are actually in it just for the culling…..
I’ll go as long as the staff of the Bee comes along.
https://babylonbee.com/news/10-lesser-known-plagues-god-used-to-smite-the-egyptians
Worst plague ever:
Every Egyptian had to attend a mandatory 2-hour DEI seminar: You can’t say no to HR.
After watching those “Off the Grid” shows, I know Mrs. TOK wouldn’t go anywhere if you had to poop in a bucket.
Indoor plumbing is Priority Number One.
Speaking of thought experiments, looks like Elon Musk was seen hanging around with Nelson Peltz (the guy trying to take over Disney). And Musk joked (?) maybe he should buy Disney next.
I don’t know what the movies would be like but those amusement park rides would be wild.
Obviously if possible I’d take along a stretched K Car with thickly cushioned velour seating.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1984-chrysler-executive-2/
A nice reliant automobile?
Ya know, we all talk about putting a few (or a lot) of pages back on the calendar. I’m not so sure anymore.
We believe that we wouldn’t have to live those gone by years again but we would. The trials and tribulations of everyday life were strife full.Somehow we persevered but I’m tired of persevering. Seems like winning the battle only meant a tie and on to the next.
+1. If Hell exists, it consists of being condemned to repeat high school for eternity.
Tired of Struggling.
Obviously if possible I’d take along a stretched K Car with thickly cushioned velour seating.
That thing couldn’t pull a plow.
But I’d look like the Duke of NY!
Oh, you would replace the headlights with chandeliers?
as i commented above
I said North America analog I should have picked a middling climate but I forgot… No idea what that is North Carolina or Kentucky
so what climate would you pick? colder warmer? this is off course arrival area. you could move via rivers sea etc
since there are more on topic comments than i expected i want to keep things going
For NC it does depend on mountains, beach, or piedmont. In general, mild winters with hot and HUMID summers
Mountains do get snowstorms but snow doesn’t last more than a few days. Summer night can sometimes be cool
Eastern NC pretty much has no snow and is a little warmer than the piedmont. Summer is just as miserable in the east as the piedmont. If you are right on the beach it might be windy enough for summers to be a little less oppressive
so kentucky for you :)? new york? hell california without the commies or oregon without the commies might be good for first colonies
Great post, especially for this bunch of sci-fi nerds, Pie.
now that i think pacific coast of north america would be better, that was a place of good climate and no agriculture due to the abundance of nuts and fish and game. landing spot it oregon or washington or california without people, which is what ruins those excellent places now
California without everyone currently living there would be nice.
Good point about the resources available in the pacific NW.
The pacific NW is a region I’ve never lived in. On paper it sounds like a good spot.
California coast is definitely nice
so what climate would you pick?
Dry(er). Elevation 4000 feet plus. Snow, but not too much. Mountains with snowpack not too far off. Pretty much where I am now.
Is there an ocean suitable for commercial fishing? That would be good.
the planet is while not identical very similar to earth. continents oceans rivers seas etc. all earth plants and animals. like earth if humans never were
the planet is while not identical very similar to earth. continents oceans rivers seas etc. all earth plants and animals.
Only relevant in a world with a massive infrastructure to move goods around the planet.
Otherwise, you are stuck with whatever resources are local.
Where are the cows and pigs?
you bring with. also dogs but no cats cause fuck cats
You need the cats to eat the rats.
there were no rats in north america before the evil white man brought them
Hoping the local chickens have eight legs. Yum!
Pushing 8 decades, so why not? Take the pill and get my 25 y.o. self off to Galt’s Gulch.
Why in the world would you include a head shot on your resume for a blue collar job?
People be weird.
showing off your shooting skills is good. or wait what kind o head shot?]
blue collar -aren’t Sumptuary laws a thing o the past?
I think you should include glamour shots of your pets. Nobody wants to look at pictures of humans.
Why would you include a head shot for any job other than model/actor?
Eh, I have seen cattle-call hirings for blue collar jobs and people still wore ties.
It’s a work around the not being able to ask about race or gender thing?
Only relevant in a world with a massive infrastructure to move goods around the planet.
Navigable rivers.
I still wouldn’t want to go, but I’m such a great guy with so many useful skills, that I’d imagine there would be a fight over which world got to have me, and the payout would be so big that I’d have to go with whomever it is that offloads a dump truck full of gold on my doorstep.