Right, big puzzle this week. I’m drunk and late so Here’s Mojo’s suggestion for books talk – Do you like character driven or plot driven stories, or do you have no idea what the distinction is, try and solve this massive glibcrostic and let us know in the commets.
Music to solve Glibcrostics to
I got no outro today, see drunk and late reference at the top of the post
Reminder: The last Sunday of each month is “What Are We Reading” Day so if you want to participate get your reports in to HeyBuddyStopDoingThat@protonmail.com by the second to last Sunday.
Do you like character driven or plot driven stories,
Yes.
Time to run off to mother’s for Mother’s Day.
Interesting people doing interesting things. How hard can it be to write that? /sarcasm
I am with kinnath. Both have there place, and, when done right, are just as wonderful.
“Do you like character driven or plot driven stories”
Definitely character-driven. To me, a compelling story about a compelling person and the travails of life is much more interesting than a typical Tom Clancy-type novel. It’s why I like Dostoyevsky, Murakami, Houellebecq and DFW so much.
That was a key part in McGee’s series on the geology along I-80 from coast to coast. He combined in a biography and history of a regional geologist per book to help lend a human face to an otherwise rocky subject.
👀
Oh he layered that up nicely.
As I say above, yes. Either of them are wonderful, when done right. When done poorly, well, they are the suck.
Anyhoo, I am reading Mann’s A Death in Venice, slowly. Going back and forth with this odd post WWII book I Am Not Stiller. A book about attempting to live away from your identity. At least, I think that is the point. Very Swiss. Both of these books are firmly in the character driven style. So I got that going for me, which is nice.
Yuppie exercise machine
Nautilus or Nordictrack?
I forgot StairMaster. Bowflex was a little bit later.
Glibcrostic link no worky for me.
Fixed!
After we talked about it in the Zoom last night (and that was a great discussion) I gave it some thought, then went and looked at the fiction books in our library. Looks like most of the stuff I read over and over is plot-driven. My own work is mostly, but not completely, plot-driven.
Totally a plot guy here.
Thee Hyperbole!!! might be obsessed with The Bro…
To be fair, everyone is obsessed with me a little. I am an enchanting Firster.
You misspelled “nobody.”
I like both plot-driven books (such as Stephen Hawking’s A Brief History of Time) and character-driven (such as Benjamin Franklin’s autobiography)
As a non-fiction guy I would say plot driven but as a reader of bios/auto bios I guess I’m also character driven. It’s all good.
You write, I read
Wife reading The Bell Jar: “I can see why Plath killed herself.”
Oof!
Character-driven stories here, I think, because I love romance novels, which are character-driven by definition, but I’m thinking about many of my favorite books, which are plot-driven, and, not coincidentally, written by men (Tom Wolfe, Neal Stephenson). As I said in our discussion last night, I think generally women write character-driven novels (including I) and men write plot-driven stuff. That is not a bad thing. I think it’s indicative of where the sexes’ interests lie.
Broadly true I think. You see this reflected in media/nerd fandoms as well – men are generally the ones interested in details, tracking continuity, debating Who Will Win (star destroyer vs Galactica), while the women write fanfic which is 80% character-driven. Partly because a lot of it is romantic of course, but even non-‘ship fanfic it tends to be plotless. I’ve seen lots of stories founder the minute they gather any plot because the writers have no idea what to do anymore.
I think in a novel length you need both – without conflict (plot) there’s no story, but without characters the reader won’t care about the story. There are exceptions in both directions, of course, where you can have characters so intrinsically interesting that they don’t have to really ‘do’ anything, and stories where the characters matter less than the unfolding action — particularly in a series where you’re assumed to already know the protagonist. You don’t have to ‘meet’ John Wick again if you’re watching Chapter 4, you already know who he is and you’re there to watch what happens.
Yes. My example was hard-boiled detective novels. Sam Spade doesn’t need to grow as a person. He just needs to be the reader’s eyes and mind while the reader tries to solve the mystery. Any mystery, really, is plot-based.
Idea driven.
Just realized that clue Z should be ‘redundant’ not ‘oxymoronic’, did I mention I was drunk when I clued this?
I made some low carb biscuits.
https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/DOG3iPR-Rg-MpDBubM-B7w.2NazisBs5hb3ojPoTNo_hj
RECIPE NAO!
I cheat.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07RRY1F7D/
The new formula mixes up dry and needs extra liquid to come out good.
Fiction: character first, plot second. They’re both important, but plot comes second.
I think I care more about a work of fiction having well-developed characters with depth than about it having a single, clear story arc that leads to a climax and resolution. If I’ve come to care about the characters, I won’t mind if the book is simply a series of vignettes from their lives. Plots are great, especially if they engage you so completely that you can’t put the book down, but if I don’t care about the characters, the most intriguing plot is unlikely to hold my interest.
…and I finally solved the puzzle.
I think your math is off on CC. It’s definitely off on B.
Did he mention he was drunk when he clued it?
Did I mention that the site needs a puzzle editor.
Put up a sign at the border.
I’m working my way through the Witcher series of books. Watched a few of the YouTube videos about the problems with the Netflix series. While the show producer had promised to be true to the books, she wasn’t.
Her departures for the source material are both plots and characters. I think the character deviations has people the angriest and will cause the most problems in future seasons (which won’t) be many. Hard to recover the plot line when the characters are so out of sync.
Why is it a divide? Characters should have personal aspects that make them act in a way that drives the plot. The plot should be character-driven, only happening because of the people in the drama. . (note: you can still write the plot first, then make your characters fit into roles where they’d act in a way to support the plot). Then it’s nice and seamless.
Also, rare, because writers are people and they often have axes to grind, which results in certain things / events being given heavier weight than they probably should have been. Whatever, it’s their book / movie / play.
I’m going to go re-watch Glengarry Glen Ross again. Lemme know if there’s a Sunday Zoom or something.
I think I tend toward preferring plot driven. That said, I can’t stand a story or novel in which no characters are likable on any level. They can be flawed, sure but if there is no character I can like at all, I don’t care what happens to them.
” in which no characters are likable on any level”
This is why I have up on Ozark.
Or The Sopranos, or Peaky Blinders, or … the one about the bikers starring Peggy Bundy, I forget the name.
Sons of Anarchy, IIRC it was from the guy who did “The Shield” I think everyone from “The Shield” did cameos, Walter Goggins played a tranny whore that one of the bikers fell for. But you’re correct the only likable characters all got killed off fairly early on.
I stuck with PB to the end. For me, there was just enough “complication” in most of the characters to stay with it.
If a writer can really put you inside the head of a loathsome character, those are actually some of my favorite stories.
(The aforementioned Sopranos being one of my favorite TV series of all time because of, not in spite of, its horrible characters; maybe you had to grow up in a really dysfunctional family to appreciate that)
Jim Thompson fan?
Also you just reminded me that I need to read more George V. Higgins.
I think I’ve only read The Killer Inside Me, which I thought was very good.
Grab a copy of Pop. 1280, you won’t be disappointed.
Thanks, added to my ever-growing backlog.
I remember wanting the assassin to get De Gaulle in Day of the Jackal (the book) even knowing that he wouldn’t
“I can’t stand a story or novel in which no characters are likable on any level”
Me neither. This shows up more for me with TV shows, though. I quit Breaking Bad partway through for that reason. Lots of others I just bail on, too.
I quit Breaking Bad when it didn’t occur to Jesse to get 2-3 tubs to put the body and acid in, and cutting up the body, instead of putting it in the bathtub so it fell through 2 floors. All he had to do was what he was told.
I quit BB when they had a High School teacher not have health insurance. Talk about a suspending disbelief fail.
I had that same moment of WTF, but went past it, until I couldn’t stand the dumbshit.
But that’s really Jesse in a nutshell, isn’t it?
Yup.
I quit before the last season. I wasn’t following too closely as it was my roommate controlling the TV but I was amused the first couple seasons. Less so as it wore on.
I was all ready to say that I prefer plot-driven stories, but thinking back about some of my real favorites, I was surprised at how character-driven many of them were.
The best stories, of course, are driven by characters and plot.
I thought I was weaving plot and character fairly equitably, but somebody whose opinion I trust told me I was a character writer, so I just took that as “Welp, I can plot all day long, but I can’t get the romance writer out of me.”
I have an (occasional) writing coach, who once told me, “Actually, there is no such thing as plot; that’s a misconception. A story is the story of a main character place under escalating pressure to reveal who he is to us and to himself.”
I’m not 100% convinced of that, but I think his main point is well taken. A lot of the sci-fi I read when I was a teen, I’ve gone back and read again and realized just how thin it was at is mostly written to get to the “hook” at the end.
Biscuits and gravy for dinner, not low carb. Sorry Sean. But delicious.
Sausage gravy, I hope?
Haven’t had biscuits and gravy in too long. Because carbs, of course. Fuckit, though. I’m not gonna be fat because I have the occasional B&G. I’m gonna be fat because I drink too much.
Yep. Did it like SOS.
https://youtu.be/KzdbFnv4yWQ
The top comment, or second to the top comment, is awesome!
Glibbooks.
https://archive.is/gMaIu/9e4d28e078723b5b8498903c973c6cde9ee7444b.jpg
NSFW.
https://archive.is/dlsB3/1e389babb0fd3684dd97668ae8d2a4fa2145f5fe.webp
NSFW.
https://archive.is/IV11d/9f3d8bcce5cc6280324de9222138475887bd78b1.jpg
NSFW.
https://archive.is/7dYlw/5d4950d1b700767021c5f8e43de32fd88e166c60.jpg
NSFW.
Straight out of the 60’s Playboy magazine
But the 1972 Marylyn Cole is THE classic Playboy woman with a book centerfold. There can be no other.
In case you were wondering what band is least in need of a horn section here’s ZZ Top on The Johnny Carson Show.
Not gonna lie, I like it with the brass section. I also miss saxophone solos in rock songs.
No solos but one of my fave sax-heavy bands.
Love it. Never heard of them before, I’ll have to check them out.
Do it. A criminally overlooked band from that time and place.
I was expecting at least half a nod to the beefcake who played with Tina Turner.
De gustibus and all, but it just doesn’t sound right to me. I don’t mind horns in rock but it needs to fit. Hell the second best rock song ever has an extended sax outro.
Alright then, out with it.
#2, and if your wondering #1
The Rolling Stones definitely knew how to use a horn section. I’m not hearing any horns in #1. Or is your point simply that it’s the best rock song ever?
That was on my mental list of possibilities for #2.
My mom was a huge Bon-Scott-era-only AC/DC fan. She loved that entire album.
extended sax outro
I watched Dirty Jobs on Tubi today. Holy cow, what a terrible movie.
And yet, Norm MacDonald and all the other cameos and comedians whom I know and love from other stuff makes it worth watching. The fact that Norm himself seemed to be parodying being an actor almost broke the 4th wall and made me giggle. I can see why it is still loved.
That’s not even “character driven”. It’s “actor/comedian-driven”.
Still, once was enough.
Also, Chris Farley’s last movie.
RIP, Chris, Norm, and Bob (Saget–who directed).
And Artie Lange. Oh wait, he hasn’t managed to do himself in yet.
It’s one of those comedies whose only real purpose was to bring together a bunch of great comics. The story and film making is almost incidental.
Heh.
https://hotair.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Fvr_U5qWcAAeSAr-1110×1072.jpeg
Hope that link works.
Lol.
Plot or character? Both are necessary for good stuff. Plot without characters and you get Agatha Christie; characters without plot and you get bad Hemingway.
Jacob Sullum is a real piece of shit.
I’m glad that a fair minded person can convict Trump based on the word of a women whose account is supported by nothing, and which the best you can say is something like what she said happened could have taken place. Not what she actually has said happened, which was rape, but something LIKE IT people!
Yet not consistent with what the “victim” alleged happened. That’s a pretty big discrepancy.
The entire article is rage inducing in its stupidity, but this line takes the cake:
This moronic, retarded statement places the burden of proof on Trump. He is somehow supposed to disprove something when he was never given any actual date. Not even a year. I don’t even think they ever named where this took place. Just a clothing store. Trump’s argument is simple – he doesn’t even know this broad. Your evidence is that a famous guy who has met god knows how many journalists over the years was captured in a photograph with her sometime in the ’80’s. What a connection – it’s like they were best friends and he clearly should remember ever momentary encounter he’s ever had in his entire life.
There’s no way Trump could disprove or defend himself against this accusation and the jury decided on some moronic split the baby decision where they said they didn’t actually find the accuser credible enough to accept her story, but were going to give her $5 million in damages, anyway. That is what a “fair minded” jury does, apparently.
“Hey, you’re one of the jurors that let Trump get away with rape. What’s wrong with you? Are you a Republican?”
/alternate future history
On the increasingly rare occasions when I read anything from anno Trumpini Reason, I often wonder if it really changed, or if I did. If the writing was always this incomprehensibly shallow and unserious for all those years and I just never realized it, it really reflects poorly on my judgment.
I don’t know. They were a breath of fresh air when I first found them, but the comment section was actually an interesting place to be if you could get past the handful of sock puppet/troll accounts.
Now, it’s like half the comments are the trolls and the rest are people attacking the writers. Everyone here pretty much turned on them. I think they legitimately changed. Or, at least, the Trump thing revealed some nasty aspects of their character that were easy to hide before.
During the Bush years the were pretty good on the war machine and the police state. During Obama they were ok on Obamacare but started to slip, and Trump fucking broke them.
Pineapple has been cut up. Cottage cheese will be served later.
I had a sudden hankering for an egg salad sandwich. I haven’t one since I was probably 8 years old.
Gah!
I wanted to ask you fine film for recommendations on a good mid-to-large multi tool (Learherman, Gerber) and also for a true pocketknife that is slim enough for daily carry in trouser pockets.
But I get the dread server error issue. Maybe my post had tigger words.
I have far too many knives around, and have yet to find a good one.
My main issue with my leatherman is that there’s no good way to grip it for most of the tools except the knife (and don’t even think of trying to use the pliers without good gloves or your hands will be worse off for it) and for a pure knife, there are so many dedicated cutting implements that I just keep the thing in my range bag as a just in case implement.
I carry around a SOG Powerassist and a Protech Godson.
https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/wotpnLvwSHqfzOtjXpgXPA.TtYloL974EACOAsH-kBHk4
The mutiltool stays on my lunchbag, and the knife in my pocket.
The knife is light, sharp, and classy with a deep carry clip. The multitool is handy and solid for those odd times I need it.
YMMV.
https://kershaw.kaiusa.com/airlock.html
I’ve had the same Leatherman for 35 years. It works. The $30 knife gets far more use.
I use a Leatherman Signal. Also a fan of the Wave+. Lifetime tools. I use it with a pocket clip.
Thank you, gentlemen!
Monday morning treat:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NEpfvTdR5-U
Father/daughter acoustic music.
🎶🎶
Morning.
🌞☕
Mornin
It is.
Liez!
/Still up since yesterday
😳
I’mma remember this next time you advocate for the world being on one time zone.
Good morning, Sean, U, NA, and Roat! Should be a quiet week at work – half day off Wednesday for a hair appointment. 👩🦰 Dragons game Friday evening. 🐲⚾
Very nice daddy/daughter duet. 😊
Good morning. It’s the last full week of school. I need to cleanup up the home office in preparation for dungeon season.
Bored, kinky schoolteachers with nothing else to do?
Go on…
Are you hot for teacher?
Those teachers, yes.
Kinda chilly here in southern NH. Mid-30s. In Mid-May. Yuck.
Off to the gym.
Mornin’ all.
Good morning, DEG! I’ll be trying out my new gym for the first time after work today.
You bought a gym? Nce!
Mornin”, reprobates!
Good morning, ‘patzie! Home safe and sound, I trust? I hope your visit with your cousins (and perhaps other relatives) was pleasant despite the sad occasion for it.
Mornin ‘, GT. Long way to go to say goodbye. I needed the week off, hadn’t had a real vacation in over a year (week off after Mrs. Patzer’s hip replacement doesn’t count). Left on a downer, my cousins are fighting over the disposition of the beachfront condo and it’s getting ugly. I plan to die broke to save my kids this sort of bullshit, and thanks to our friends in DC I most likely will.
😞
Cripple fight, getcha popcorn.
https://nypost.com/2023/05/14/new-jersey-gov-phil-murphy-attempts-to-woo-new-yorkers-in-retaliation-for-congestion-tax/
One ad reads: “PAY A CONGESTION TAX TO SIT IN NYC TRAFFIC? GET OUTTA HERE. Move your business to New Jersey.”
A similar second ad states: “LESS CONGESTION. NO CONGESTION TAX. Move your business to New Jersey.”
I hate to break it to you, Phil, but NJ is not the ultimate destination for people and businesses who are leaving NY.
Kudos for trying though.
It’s a common enough destination, though. Ask my employer.
Jersey City?
Yup.
“Wall Street West”. Back-office-o-topia.
I’m detecting a little desperation
https://twitter.com/MagaCupcake/status/1657534497468870656
Heh